Dads on Books

David (00:33)
Hey, Mike.

Mike (00:34)
And here we are again. Hey David, how are you?

David (00:37)
I'm doing just great, how are you? Yay!

Mike (00:39)
I'm doing great.

David (00:44)
Thank you. Thank you. No, thank you. Thank you.

Mike (00:45)
⁓ you're welcome. You're welcome.

I am just playing with things on this here platform that we're recording on. Seeing some shirts, riverside.fm. And they have some media.

David (00:57)
What here platform is it? Can we say?

I love it.

Mike (01:09)
I know it's really really funny isn't it? ⁓

David (01:11)
That was hilarious.

just, so professional. hiding my laughter inside.

Mike (01:15)
I know it, I know it, so I'm gonna

stop doing that because we're here to do a show! A boot!

David (01:20)
That's right,

books.

Mike (01:23)
Yes, about books.

David (01:25)
a bootlox and we even picked a book about which to speak.

Mike (01:29)
And which book is that?

David (01:31)
This book is called Don't Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus.

Mike (01:37)
Well, that's a strange name for a book.

David (01:40)
It is a strange name for a book and the words and pictures. Fortunately, the way they wrote it on the cover, I don't have to say that word. can't say very often words and pictures by Mo Willems.

Mike (01:51)
by Mo Willems. Do we know anything about Mo Willems?

David (01:53)
Mm-hmm.

⁓ I used to.

Mike (01:57)
Do we want to talk?

Let's talk about that after we talk about. Don't let the pigeon drive the bus. Don't let the pigeon drive the bus.

David (02:01)
the book.

No matter

what you do. I chose this book, or at least I suggested it to you last time. Mainly because I love Mo Willems and. As is the thought behind our podcast, the only reason I know of Mo Willems is because of our girls, and I probably know him better than I would have had it not been for COVID.

Mike (02:15)
Yes you did.

David (02:32)
because that fourth quarter of the 1920 school year, so spring of 20 when COVID hit, my girls were in pre-K, first grade and third grade. And the first grader had assignments about Mo Willems. So she had to read the book and I think they made it available online because we couldn't go to libraries. And there may have been a video with him.

Mike (02:32)
Okay.

intriguing.

David (02:58)
talking about his inspiration and how he draws his books, et cetera. I remember very few details except that I simply like his stuff.

Mike (03:07)
That sounds awesome.

I would agree. I think his stuff is super cool. and I will, say honestly, I'd never read any of these pigeon books. However, I did know that the other books always seem to have the pigeon in there somewhere.

David (03:29)
Mm,

Mike (03:31)
so I think it's kind of funny that he's kind of done the same thing that Richard Scarry did with, planes and trains and automobiles and John Candy and Steve Martin. maybe I like mixed media, ⁓ but, we actually were much more into the piggy and elephant books.

David (03:40)
See Martin, you might be mixing some media there, Mike. I'm not sure. I love it. It's my favorite kind of media.

Mike (03:56)
which I loved. thought they were hilarious. Lots and lots of fun. We probably read four or five of them total and they were a lot of fun. but I didn't know all that much about Moellem's and I hadn't read Don't Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus.

David (04:13)
Well, now you have. So what do you think?

Mike (04:15)
I have.

Well, I think I like it. I think it's not, I don't know. I feel like it's not, obviously the artwork itself is similar to and Elephant, those are more interesting to me. However, I did like this book, but it's

David (04:19)
that's good.

Mike (04:36)
almost more simplistic. It's like this is for a younger age group and then Piggy and Elephant builds on the pigeon.

David (04:50)
You just put it into words better than I was trying to based on exactly, exactly what you're saying is what I thought. And those are all good words, but in a different order, it'd probably be better. No, as I was listening to. ⁓ excellent. That'll be that'll make the video very interesting because I'll be all over the place. No, I I also had memories of his stuff being so fun.

Mike (05:06)
Well, I'll see what I can do in post.

Right?

David (05:18)
And we had a collection and we probably still do of all of the piggy and elephant books. There's a bound volume that's pretty thick that I think have all of them in one. And they were all so much fun. And when I read this book this morning, because, unlike some of our more recent books, you can go, ⁓ I have 10 minutes. I better read our book. ⁓ Yeah. Not at all. so.

Mike (05:41)
Yeah, it did not take long.

David (05:45)
The point is, I read it and thought, wait, that's it? And I just first, I'm not going to say I didn't like it. I didn't appreciate it as much until I came to the same conclusion you did. This is definitely for a far younger reader, almost a beginning reader. It's about words and pictures and far less of the story and the characters and all the jokes and the fun stuff that I remembered from his other works.

Mike (06:03)
Yes.

Yes, however, as I thought about it more, found that I was like, ⁓ this actually is very interesting. I admit I did some research as I do, mostly because I don't know that much about Mo Willems. So I thought, ⁓ know, let me, you know, I think it was ⁓ half an hour ago.

David (06:23)
Okay, Mike. yeah.

Right.

Mike (06:39)
when looked him up and found some information about him and the book. And I hadn't really thought about how this is really a good book for like that preschool age, because like when you're reading it to or with them,

I think it's very interesting that the child could see themselves in the pigeon because the pigeon is going crazy wanting to do something. And I can just go, ⁓ yeah, that's just like when you wanted to go into the candy store and I said no.

David (07:08)
Yes.

you

You're absolutely right. There's it's the child trying to negotiate, trying to get their way. And it's I especially. We do not do not negotiate with terrorists exactly. And there's the one spread that has the eight different. I'll be your friend. How about I give you five bucks? No, I mean, you could hear your child saying every single one of these. It was almost like that entire spread was.

Mike (07:31)
Totally. And we will not negotiate with terrorists.

Totally.

David (07:52)
a story in and of itself from I'll Be Your Best Friend to Fine at the very end of those two pages. Fine.

Mike (07:59)
Fine. And

one of the things I really loved with this was the pigeon's expressions. It's so simple, the stuff that he does, but just the eyelid covering half of the eye makes you think, he's very suspect of what's happening.

David (08:17)
Yes.

Exactly.

Mike (08:24)
So I just, really love how much you can do. I mean, you only see one eye of pigeon most of the time, maybe all of the time.

David (08:35)
I think you might be right. I'm looking for two eyes. I can't find two eyes.

Mike (08:38)
I am

too and I don't see two eyes. So it is a

It's very two-dimensional artwork.

David (08:45)
Yes. And yet still conveys feelings, emotion, story very well.

Mike (08:51)
Yeah. And conveys emotions so well that I was like, ⁓ man, I wish I had read this with my kids because this is so, could, I could just see getting into this. It would be so much fun.

David (08:58)
Yes!

Totally. One of the examples I'm thinking of is back on that same spread with the eight frames. No fair is the third one. And the pigeon is sitting down with his arm wings crossed. I mean, full body communication. It's just and also there's an economy of art because again, very simple drawings.

Mike (09:19)
Uh-huh.

David (09:29)
but there's also an economy of words. And yet both of those still convey such fun emotion and story that it totally works. And that's the appeal of Mo Willems' work, no matter what it is. okay, you did your research. I'm gonna talk about the pictures. at... needs sound effects? We have us.

Mike (09:35)
Yeah.

Yes.

I

Tell about pictures,

David (09:56)
I looked at the beginning and it doesn't say the media medium, but you can just look at it and know that it's either black crayon or black chalk. And that's what the lines are drawn with. And there is color, but there's no shading. Every. There might be different shades of a color, but within any line, there's just one color.

Mike (10:10)
No, well.

Yes.

David (10:20)
So it is very simple, but it's still very fun. And there's a palette. It's all pastels except for the red truck the red bus. No, there are trucks and buses. Hey, yeah, I didn't know there was a truck and I just flipped over and at the very end, maybe Pigeon is imagining himself or herself driving a truck because there's funny things of Pigeon driving the truck and using the CB on one actually. I'm just noticing that now. That is hilarious.

Mike (10:29)
Are there trucks?

Yes.

I just have to say a couple of things and my, one that I'm reading on the like second or third page, technically the fourth page in the book. It says, don't let the pigeon drive the bus. Words and pictures by Mo Willems. And right below it, does yours say anything?

David (10:59)
Okay.

Yes, it does. says a few things. Hyperion Books for Children slash New York. And then it says an imprint of Disney Book Group. What does yours say?

Mike (11:10)
What does it say?

⁓ interesting.

Mine says, wait for it, Walker Books.

David (11:23)
I'm waiting.

Huh.

Mike (11:28)
These Walker Books people, they've got it going on.

David (11:31)
I

sure do. And I Walker is such an uncommon name. They must be related to you. Totally.

Mike (11:37)
Absolutely. They must be.

Although they are in England, I believe.

David (11:42)
that's right, I remember that now.

Mike (11:44)
the great empire of the British people. Anyway.

David (11:47)
Hey, let me ask

you, let me ask you a question, Mr. Walker. Can you turn to the next page where maybe there is a copyright or printing date or year? Because maybe we can get a time frame of when Walker Books took over.

Mike (11:50)
Please do, Mr. Patrick.

Okay.

did they?

David (12:02)
or whatever.

Mike (12:06)
I

David (12:06)
Well, mine says copyright 2003, and it also says first edition April 2003. So maybe this is before the Walker publishing takeover of the world.

Mike (12:14)
Yes.

I bet it was, and

maybe the Walker brothers ⁓ only printed it outside of America maybe. ⁓ But yeah, it is possible that that is what it is.

David (12:28)
Who knows?

I love it. Interesting. The things you can discover with books.

Mike (12:38)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Please do. No.

David (12:40)
I want to point out one of my favorite parts, and then I'm going to have you pick out your favorite part very

early on in the story. When Pigeon says, I thought he'd never leave.

Mike (12:48)
Yes.

Yes, I was just on that page as I started flipping through to find my... but go ahead.

David (12:56)
Yep. I love it.

If you turn the page.

Mike (13:02)
Yes.

David (13:04)
There is simply Pigeon standing there. And yes, and as you said, that there's the one eye, but because the eyeball is a little bit up inside the eye, I wrote the thought. So the thought, it's as if, I thought he'd never leave. then Pigeon has.

Mike (13:08)
Daring.

The what? The thought.

Whoa, Pigeon had a thought.

David (13:35)
So I.

Mike (13:35)
And

I was, ⁓ if you noticed me moving around, I was just seeing if Pigeon was related to Mona Lisa. Eyes don't follow you.

David (13:40)
Okay, I notice it now, yeah.

Mike (13:52)
However the eyes have it. I just love saying that.

David (13:55)
That's awesome. That is so funny. I was like, where is he going with this? And I was all, that's funny. What is he doing?

Mike (13:59)
What? Sorry, too much

Picasso in my... Yeah, anyway.

David (14:07)
Do you have a favorite part or anything that kind of suck up? Yeah.

Mike (14:08)
right, we were going to talk about my favorite part.

I have two. I the page where

The pigeon is just so dejected. I never get to do anything.

But you can totally see like the over dramatization of a toddler there. Totally. And then my other super, super favorite, like I want a bumper sticker of this.

David (14:35)
⁓ totally. Totally.

Mike (14:44)
How about I give you a fiver?

That just cracks me up like his hand is up covering, or sorry, his hand, his wing is shielding his mouth from everyone hearing. So very funny.

David (15:04)
You can almost see or hear the. I love it. I love that, too. And hey, since you had that one, but two favorite things, I discovered another one earlier when he says, please. The voice bubble is there, but the little, stem that goes from the mouth of the bubble is wavy.

Mike (15:07)
Yes.

⁓ yes. Yeah.

David (15:25)
See that?

It's a wavy one versus that. And I didn't notice it before, but that's an intentional thing that how please like, what does the waviness mean? How is he saying, please? it's funny. You mentioned toddler and stuff, half of the things he's doing in here, my current eight and 10 year old girls do fine. Please.

Mike (15:39)
Please. Yes.

Fine. Whatever.

David (15:53)
the negotiation, et cetera.

Mike (15:54)
I added the whatever though.

David (15:56)
I'll tell you what, I'll just steer.

My cousin Herb drives a bus almost every day. mean, just, you know, love it or this one. True story with the eye closed.

Mike (16:07)
True story.

David (16:09)
Yeah. True story. I

mean, just, it's, it's just fantastic. So.

Mike (16:14)
you

David (16:16)
it's good stuff. Moe, say it ain't so Moe, you did a great job.

Mike (16:20)
Say it ain't so mo, say it ain't so.

David (16:24)
we have an author that we've read and talked about. And one of the greatest compliments I can give to an author is that person makes me want to write. And as simple as this is, I feel that way with Mo. It would be so much fun to, how do you have an entire character, a range of emotions and tell a great story with such economy? So few words, such simple drawing.

Mike (16:45)
Right.

David (16:46)
be even more fun since I can't draw to do this with someone who could so we can do the playing off of each other and the yes ending and all that stuff that I

Mike (16:54)
Yeah,

yeah, no, it's terrific. So with the leftover time that we have, because we've talked about the book, we didn't really mention, like sometimes we talk a little bit about the and what the goal of the book is, sort of the journey. ⁓ I think the

David (17:02)
Yes.

or the journey, the message.

Mike (17:20)
major thing is here.

Don't let the pigeon drive the bus.

David (17:27)
yeah. The moral, if you will, of the story.

Mike (17:33)
No pigeons driving buses, because feathers will go everywhere.

David (17:38)
Yes,

it would be bad for the pigeon, the bus and all of us. Yeah, that's great.

Mike (17:43)
Yes, and maybe

even the truck drivers.

David (17:47)
Exactly. I do have another thing that I have to admit.

Mike (17:49)
So,

okay.

David (17:54)
one of my first thoughts when I finished the book was, wait, where's the pigeon? Okay, I thought this was a duck.

I'm not kidding. I think because of the collar or the stripe on his neck, it just reminded me of a mallard. So I had that in my head. So I thought, wait, where's the where's the pigeon supposed to be a pigeon? And then it wasn't I was going to bring it up at the beginning. And I thought, no, don't don't say a criticism first. But then as I was reading it with you now, as we're recording this and you're saying, hey, the doctor, I'm like, that is a duck. I mean, that is a pigeon, not a duck. He's the pigeon.

Mike (18:10)
Uh-huh.

Yes, I could see that.

What's up, Duck?

David (18:37)
Yeah, exactly. So anyway, I, you know, don't let the duck drive the wait, what?

Mike (18:46)
So in my crazy, need to research and find things out about books, I looked up the book and followed Wikipedia and then, took me to Mo Wilms, website. However, I was looking at it going, ⁓

Okay, that's a a window popped up that said, this is not safe. Go back, go back. And I was like, Whoa, what the heck?

David (19:15)
⁓ wow.

Don't let Mike drive the bus.

Mike (19:20)
Don't let Mike drive the internet.

So I went back and I just searched instead of following a link in Wikipedia, But I went and found his bio on the HarperCollins.

David (19:29)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Mike (19:35)
And Look at that. It's a picture of

David (19:36)
Okay.

yeah.

Mike (19:45)
Mo Willems.

David (19:47)
with a pigeon on his head.

Mike (19:50)
Yes. I just, I'm, I'm in awe. I just want to know how, I want to know how he stood enough for that pigeon to land on his head.

David (20:04)
That must have been a lot. He's a very patient man. Wow. Moe. So it ain't so moe. Mm hmm. Hey, I did a lot of research to actually. Well, and by that, I mean, I'm looking at the back of ⁓ the book. A little bit about our good friend Moe right there. OK. He's a.

Mike (20:06)
He is. He is. Wow. Say it ain't so.

tell me more.

Yeah. Yeah. I did not read the back. Maybe I should go back and read the back.

David (20:29)
This guy is really serious award winning and award garnering. my copy has the metal, the caldicot. think this is. Yeah, so that's that's kind of cool. New York Times bestselling number one, New York Times bestselling, et cetera. But he also he was he began his career. Did you catch this? Yeah. Where did he begin his career as a writer and animator?

Mike (20:32)
Yes? Yes.

Caldecott metal,

I did.

I Betty Bernie, did they hang out together? Or did ⁓ him and ⁓ the guy with no pictures?

David (21:03)
⁓ no.

No.

Mike (21:10)
but those people were in the same medium, weren't they?

David (21:14)
Yes.

Mike (21:16)
And that medium would be television.

David (21:17)
Yes,

but what show? What show?

Mike (21:21)
I forgot. See you ask me. yes. Yes. Yes. Wait, wait, wait. Don't tell me. Don't tell me. I got it. It is. It starts with the same letter. There's two words, two words. Sounds like, no, it doesn't sound like anything. yes. Seed Boulevard, Sesame Street.

David (21:22)
Sesame Street.

sorry. Okay.

Yes. ⁓ Alliteration. Yep. ⁓ Seed Road. Wait. Yeah. Yes, exactly. No. Sesame Lane.

Yes, Sesame Street. He began his career as a writer and animator on Sesame Street, where he garnered, garnered six Emmy Awards. So. I have not garnered many awards in my life.

Mike (21:50)
Garnard. which is crazy.

David (21:59)
No, but he garnered six and he lives with his family in Massachusetts. So anyway, good stuff.

Mike (22:03)
⁓ And

do you know where he was born?

David (22:08)
I do not, but it might be something significant and cool, so pray do tell. ⁓

Mike (22:12)
Will it is not all that exciting, but he

was born in a place Probably about six miles from my house in Des Plains, Illinois Which is so funny because you look at it and you're like, ⁓ that's not how you say that but that's how everyone here says it Des Plains There's the ⁓

David (22:21)
Really?

⁓ that's fun.

Desplanes. Is there an E on the end? Yes.

Mike (22:40)
No, I think it's just an E, but it just seems like the first S would be silent. Duplan.

David (22:48)
The connect, the connect. The correct, je parle français but I struggle with English. Now the correct pronunciation would be day. So you don't pronounce yes, des plan. Des plan.

Mike (23:04)
The plan. The

plan, wee wee wee. All the way home.

David (23:08)
⁓

my goodness. So anyway, we love Mo Willems. I love his art. I love his storytelling. So simple, so fun. And I would love to make a living writing these fun little stories and getting this

Mike (23:15)
great book.

it's a great book. love it.

And another one family's favorite books. I don't even know if I ever realized, but he wrote Nuffle Bunny.

David (23:34)
Nuffle Bunny. I've neither read nor heard of Nuffle Bunny.

Mike (23:36)
Have you not read Nuffle Bunny?

⁓

well, do not look it up yet. I have been talking with some people now that we've actually had people on our show I to my friend Andy and said, Hey, you know, some point we should have you on the show. He's a great friend of mine and the

David (23:42)
Okay.

Yeah.

Mike (24:00)
guy that got me into this whole podcasting thing because he wanted to do a podcast and I helped him produce it. So I was like, ⁓ it's the higher ed jobs podcast, by the way, if anyone was interested. So I mentioned it to him and he was like, well, you know what book I would want to do. And I was like, can't think of it. Why? Why has my brain.

David (24:07)
That's awesome.

Do I?

Mike (24:29)
And then at me and just shook his head and said, Nuffle Bunny. then epiphany explosion in my brain. ⁓ right. I'm stupid. So we've got, we've got some good stories about Nuffle Bunny and Andy will be on the show someday and we will talk them because it's, it's a lot of fun.

David (24:43)
Duh.

you

There will be,

there will be Duffle Bunny. Duffle Bunny? Nuffle. K and U.

Mike (24:59)
Nuffel, K and U.

or duffel bunny? Because you throw the bunny in a duffel bag?

David (25:09)
or a Muffle

Bunny, because you want the bunny to be quiet?

Mike (25:12)
or ruffle bunny because you put a bunny in a skirt or a tutu.

David (25:18)
Or Waffle Bunny, because I got that far into the alphabet and realized I didn't have anything.

Mike (25:24)
Like waffle, woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof-woof

David (25:28)
You know what? I've had a knuffle.

I've had a knuffle bunny of you. I'm going to do my clean slate thing and I'm going to follow your advice. I'm not going to look it up at all. And when the time comes, I will obtain the book and I will read it without any idea what's inside.

Mike (25:34)
Okay.

Well, fine.

so we've had at this point, three out of five of our children on the show? Next week, we are going to be having a show with number four. And then I'm a little disappointed because number five seems to not want to maybe

David (26:00)
Yes.

Mike (26:14)
doesn't want to be on the show. Maybe she's a little shy, because I know she is a little bit shy. But I really hope she changes her mind someday.

David (26:23)
If she doesn't change her mind, I will change her mind. So we'll make it No, no, no, no, no, no. If I've learned one thing today and I don't know if I have, but if I have, that is what I've learned. The pigeon and the Lucy do not drive the bus.

Mike (26:28)
Okay. don't make her drive the bus.

That is.

do not let Lucy drive the or the yellow submarine.

David (26:46)
Never ever.

In the sky with coal. what?

absolutely. This is a good segue into what our next book is going to be, because it's going to be number four. My daughter, Sarah loves warrior cats, and that's we'll be doing next.

Mike (26:59)
Yes.

Yes.

And we were talking the other day and I was like, this is a really long book, but it's really very interesting.

And I'll tell you more next week. It's a little teaser. And where I started going with this whole thing about interviews, we are scheduled to have an author actually come on our show. So we are very excited. Yes. And we are recording on Halloween.

David (27:21)
Stay tuned, don't change that dial.

What? Yeah, we are. I'm so excited about it.

Mike (27:47)
But that's as much as you'll get out of me

David (27:50)
Well, I am with you, Mike. So I shant, shallant, shallot, say no more. With garlic and fennel. Yep. Okay.

Mike (27:56)
Shallots.

Well, off to cook. Hope everybody

had a great day and we'll talk to you soon.

David (28:05)
Bon appétit and good reading. Bye bye.