Dads on Books

Mike Walker (00:01)
I'm Mike Walker.

David Patrick (00:02)
I'm David Patrick. ⁓

Dad's on books, two minutes later. But we are dads on books. We're addicted to books, we sit on books, and we even talk about books.

Mike Walker (00:17)
Welcome to another episode of Gats on Books. Well... Hello David. Hello Mike. are ya? I'm doing great. How are you? That is phenomenal. So today, David, what are we going to discuss?

David Patrick (00:24)
camera.

The same, my friend.

Mike, we're going to discuss the little engine that could.

Mike Walker (00:38)
And why, pray tell, are we going to discuss this book?

David Patrick (00:42)
Uh,

I think... I need to stop forgetting why we decided we were going to discuss this book.

Mike Walker (00:47)
That'd be a good idea since you were the one that suggested it.

David Patrick (00:50)
Yeah, well, I'm, I have this idea in my head. So I'm assuming that I'd like to say I remember why, but it's just probably the same feeling. This was one of my favorite books as a kid. And it is a multi-generational classic. It's older than both of my parents. And I grew up reading it. I have no real specific memories. I'm sure my parents read it to me. I read it and I just love it. And ⁓

Mike Walker (01:17)
Yeah, I think it's a book that a the story has been around for a really long time. But I think everybody has heard this story, at least in America, because it's pretty popular. Yes, fact that it was not that hard for us to figure out that we were going to do it and find it. But when is your book from?

David Patrick (01:41)
That's a great question. Mine, the most recent copyright on it is 1976, but this was a 1999 printing. Yeah, so probably one of the last ones in the 20th century.

Mike Walker (01:49)
wow.

Whoa, that's crazy. I remember the 20th century.

David Patrick (01:56)
I do too. They are vague memories, but they are there. I can't remember why I went into the kitchen or why I told you we should do this book a week ago, but I remember the 1900s. But you know, this is one of the books that I could have sworn I had my original copy of from when I read it as a kid. But obviously I didn't. And what's funny, I was talking to you before we started in really primitive block lettering and pencil. The word Lucy is written on the inside front cover of this one.

Mike Walker (01:59)
Somewhere in the brain.

⁓ So.

David Patrick (02:26)
Usually if someone gave it to her, they wrote in it, but she just decided at one point at a very young age that two things, A, I can write and B, this is mine. So this was her copy.

Mike Walker (02:38)
Kids claiming things.

David Patrick (02:40)
like they do. But I know, did you read it as a kid? mean, you said it's a classic, but

Mike Walker (02:46)
Absolutely. mean, I don't really remember when I read it, but everybody knows the story I think and I remember thinking every once in a while, you know when you're in a tough situation and things are not going the right way. I think I can I think I can yeah so I know that I read it at some point or had it read to me because that still goes around in my head just like a train exactly. I think I can I think I can I think I

David Patrick (03:15)
I thought I could. I thought I could.

Mike Walker (03:23)
So let's get back to that reference a little bit later, but what do you think about the book? What do you what do you want to talk about?

David Patrick (03:32)
The very, very first page of the book ⁓ reminded me of something, probably the only negative thing I'm going to say about the book. And I don't know this is true in all editions, but this is a book that not even mid sentence, mid phrase, you turn the page. Did you notice that? And it doesn't happen a lot, but it happens.

Mike Walker (03:56)
Don't think I did notice that.

David Patrick (03:59)
The beginning of the book is chug, chug, chug, puff, puff, puff, ding, dong, ding, dong. The little train rumbled over the tracks. She was a happy little train. No punctuation, turn the page. For she had such a jolly load to carry. Yeah, and then the next page, dolls with blue eyes and yellow curls, dolls with.

Mike Walker (04:11)
Interesting.

David Patrick (04:19)
Brown eyes and brown ⁓ That one was more obvious and it doesn't happen at all throughout the book and I don't remember that as a kid But as a parent reading this to my kids that was a little annoying Yeah, and I think here we are a few minutes into our recording of this episode And I don't think I'm gonna say one more negative thing about this book That's it. I got it out

Mike Walker (04:44)
Well, tell me the good stuff.

David Patrick (04:46)
The good stuff. I just love the art. mean, who knows if it was contemporary in 1930 when this book was made, but it is very, very, very old timey. And if you could read what I'm saying, it would be old hyphen timey. There'd be a hyphen in there. But with a hyphen.

Mike Walker (05:03)
old timey.

David Patrick (05:09)
No, no, no, but do know why I'm saying that?

Well, because there's a lot of places, the list of toys, jack hyphen knives, after hyphen meal treats, there's a lot of words that they hyphenated back then. And I'm assuming again, that the book was written, that the writer was writing it, and they're printing it in the style of, there's a lot of hyphens. And I noticed that too. This is not a criticism. I thought it was funny.

There was arm hyphen chairs and dining hyphen car in one of the trains. Anyway, no more hyphens.

Mike Walker (05:42)
Whoa, that's a lot of hyphens.

David Patrick (05:44)
Yes. No, but I just, love the book. The art is really fun. And for me, it's very nostalgic. And so I will tell you that. And there's so much of the art. There's one towards the end that I probably had the same emotional reaction to maybe the same thought in my head when I read it this time, as when I was reading it to my girls, as I was being read to or reading it as a child myself. And it's just fun. I just love it. Cool.

Mike Walker (06:09)
So can I ask a question of you?

David Patrick (06:13)
ask

as many questions of me as you'd like.

Mike Walker (06:15)
Perfect! Well, I'll also ask them to you. So on the cover of your book, what does it look like?

David Patrick (06:22)
It has big block letters, the little engine that could in the blue with black outline. And it shows the little engine going down a hill with a nice yellow sky behind it diagonally across the page.

Mike Walker (06:37)
Interesting so the one that I read who's the art by on that?

David Patrick (06:43)
At the bottom, doesn't say it in the but at the bottom, there's just a signature on the art. It's SND Howman, but it doesn't say it officially in the book in the title. It says by Waddy Piper, the complete comma original edition doesn't say art. I'm looking for hyphens on the cover and I can't find any. There's no hyphens. Where's the hyphens? So it does not mention the artist or illustrators, but they have their tiny and by they it's SND Howman at the bottom.

Mike Walker (06:58)
No, have fun.

David Patrick (07:12)
very, very bottom of the tiny corner of the painting.

Mike Walker (07:15)
very cool. So I ask because the one that I read has the train going up the hill, not down the hill. Yeah. So I know that there are many, many versions and I'm sure that there's lots of ⁓ different copies. So that one over the Life of Waddy Piper's version of this book, there are many

I guess not many, many, but there are a few different artists. So it started out. Yeah. So that is not the original art. don't think, I think that is the art from the 1954 printing, but there was also a 1976 that featured art by Ruth Sanderson. And then the one you've got is neither of those two people.

and I can't remember the first Iliastrator but I thought it was was interesting that it was changed several times over the course of its life which really you know honestly probably isn't that surprising because you want to keep things fresh for people like ⁓ I've got this old book with these old illustrations stupid pictures and blah

David Patrick (08:40)
⁓ I think you meant to say old timey and hyphens, right Mike? that what you meant? We would not, we would not want that in our books, especially in front of our kids.

Mike Walker (08:46)
to say hyphens

Absolutely not! So, but that brings me back to, okay, there's a lot of art in just his telling of the story, and do you know why I say just his telling?

David Patrick (09:06)
⁓ no I don't. I didn't catch that.

Mike Walker (09:08)
Okay, well, I will tell you then. This story has been around for ⁓ well over a hundred years. Yes, so Waddy Piper or do you know his real name?

David Patrick (09:15)
Really?

Rowdy waddy piper.

I'll take that as a no.

Mike Walker (09:27)
No, is hilarious though. ⁓ No, Watty Piper is the pen name of Arnold Monk, who was the owner of the publishing firm Platt and Monk. Platt and Monk? Does it say on the title page, retold by Watty Piper? Yes.

David Patrick (09:32)
Thank you.

in

Yes.

Not the cover, but it says by Wadi Piper on the cover, retold by Wadi Piper.

Mike Walker (09:58)
Right.

So there were disputes as to who actually came up with the story. Lots of lots of different people can claim that they had it. But I thought it was funny that actually he took the story from Mabel C. Bragg's version, which is called The Pony Engine. Wow. And that version was, I think, in 1910.

She was a teacher, I think. it was around before she published it or got it published. But she took it and put more of the children's stuff in the train, the stuff that we know of now, like the toys and the dolls and the candy. Spinach. Don't forget the spinach. Makes you big and strong. ⁓

David Patrick (10:47)
and the candy and the spinach do not forget this

Yuck!

was laughing at your joke there, not mine. I'm sure you won't.

Mike Walker (11:03)
I'll cut that out.

So anyway, it's got a long history. Wow. So yeah, very interesting.

David Patrick (11:14)
So once again, did you read all that and do that research after you read the book or before?

Mike Walker (11:19)
So I actually read the book several days ago and kind of let it percolate because I don't know, kind of thought it was, maybe it was the, what you've talked about, the disjointed nature of the reading of it. So maybe there was something along those lines, but I just thought it was like, ⁓ kind of weird going back and reading it again. There were things that I...

I know, I probably read too much into it because I wanted to do research and find out if there were any big controversies. then I found out that a million people came up with the story.

David Patrick (11:56)
first season.

Hey, did you do you have after my title page? I've got a second title page with lots of words on it and

Mike Walker (12:10)
No, mine is actually new art by Lauren Long and I found it online so I looked at this version and I looked at the version that you have.

David Patrick (12:24)
So

mine does credit the pony engine by Mabel C. Bragg. Yeah. Okay. So I have that in there too in mine. I just didn't look at that. Not only do I not do research, there's no pictures on that page. Right.

Mike Walker (12:37)
Come on. Come on, man. Who are you? ⁓ All these words. What's-his-face? Making books with no pictures. Pages with no pictures. What's up with-

David Patrick (12:45)
What's

up with that? Mr. Novak. So I want to do, I need to do more research on this because the H people, the house men, have their initials all over. And I think I mentioned S and D earlier. It's because the G initial at the bottom of the painting. There's no, when you, was like, then who's S? How many Hellmans are there?

Mike Walker (13:01)
yeah, that makes sense.

there's just two george and dallas

David Patrick (13:11)
There's a book in here, Stories That Never Grow Old, edited by Matty Piper. There's a display with tons of toys and books that's in there. So he's like, hey, now let me ask you a question. On your research, did he write lots of books or did he come up with that nom de plume so he could simply create this book?

Mike Walker (13:30)
I don't know when he came up with it, but his editing credits are also under Matty. And I remember reading something about his daughter saying she really disliked it because she thought it was silly, but it was what he came up with and he was sticking to it. So the boss. Yeah. Well, he was owner of the publishing firm, part owner, guess, half owner, plant and monk. He was.

David Patrick (13:52)
There he's the

Mike Walker (14:00)
monk so I don't know why he came second. Monk is you know before Plat in the dictionary.

David Patrick (14:07)
That's true, what plat was a more majority owner plat.

Mike Walker (14:10)
or maybe

Monk just invested in Platt and then really enjoyed it and decided to write books. Who knows? Anything's possible. Cause I didn't do that much research. Come on. But speaking of research, I did find that there was an exhibit at UIC, University of Illinois at Chicago, curated by Roy Plotnick, who is a professor there. And he back in 2007 did

David Patrick (14:21)
now

Mike Walker (14:40)
a brief history of the little engine story. So he did a lot of research. So when I was looking and I was like, ⁓ like if I want to get more info, I could call Roy Plotnik. He lives down the street. Not really. But he did teach at UIC, is probably about 20 to 30 minutes from my house. ⁓

David Patrick (15:04)
cool.

Was the the the exhibit was that it featured a lot of the artwork and the different versions and

Mike Walker (15:09)
Yeah, so

it had a lot of different versions, whatever he could find, I imagine, and then whatever he could pull out of history to put out there. Like a few of the places where it first was heard, there was something in that phrase, I think I can, first occurred in print in a 1902 article in a Swedish journal. And then...

Another early published version appeared in the New York Tribune ⁓ and it was part of a sermon by Reverend Charles S. Wing. So it really was a full story that people kept going and decided to put into a book and make sure that it stuck around.

David Patrick (16:00)
Wow. So what, what do you Piper? Et cetera. Routy, why Piper and miss AKA Mr. Monk, sir. ⁓ I guess they, ⁓ maybe he and or his estate made a lot of money off of this version of a very popular tale. Is that it is

Mike Walker (16:16)
It's

possible conclusion and he did have a lawsuit, but nobody knows because it was sealed, whether it was him suing someone or someone suing him over the story. I didn't dig deeply to really find that out because I really was moving on to new things. So, such as the book. getting back to anthropomorphic things, usually we talk about anthropomorphic.

animals yes we do but today we're talking about an anthropomorphic today we're talking about an anthropomorphic can't say it

David Patrick (16:54)
Today we're be many different trains. ⁓

Mike Walker (17:00)
⁓ We're talking about a train and toys, but more of the train. So, when you read the book, what do you feel like, if it's anthropomorphic, it must be a male or female train? A, what would you think it was?

David Patrick (17:06)
the train.

Well, for some reason, maybe I'm just going by color stereotypes. It's blue. So I thought it was a male train, but it's a it's a female train. It's I think. Yeah, because later the pronouns. Yes. The pronouns are, you know, she and her and all that. And you mentioned the anthropomorphism of train, but it's actually of trains. Because there are many trains.

Mike Walker (17:48)
Yes.

David Patrick (17:49)
You mentioned the anthropomorphism. There are many different trains, which I had kind of forgotten. So it was interesting to look at the different characters. It is because when the when the first train breaks down many trains later, it may be even when we already got to the little engine that could. I thought, wait a second. Why did the first train stop? And I went back and there was no reason. It just did. Yeah, it didn't say I'm tired or I'm hungry or I ran out of coal or whatever. Just stopped.

Mike Walker (17:51)
Yes.

It just stopped.

David Patrick (18:18)
And then it's fun. There's the, ⁓ sort of the Cal, what's I'm looking for that cavalcade of characters. Yes. The here comes a shiny new engine is the first one that comes by and I'd forgotten about those engines and they each have a reason. I pull you, I'm a passenger engine. Shiny new engine says, and passenger engine is capitalized. It's title case, capital P capital E. Yes. Like that was a thing. there, and you could.

Mike Walker (18:25)
cavalcade of characters.

David Patrick (18:47)
almost put some voices to it. Yes, snootily. And then there's the big, what is the big black one is the big strong engine. And that one called Oh, please big engine and capital B capital E there, I guess they're just giving it a name. And the next page, but the big strong engine, they added strong all caps, not all caps, the title caps. And finally, I am a freight engine. And then F and E are capitalized. So

All the different engines, the personality is pretty much directly aligned to the type of engine it is.

Mike Walker (19:22)
Wait, the freight engine. What kind of freight did it carry? Does it say?

David Patrick (19:27)
It doesn't say, and I happen to be on the page where it is leaving, and it's not carrying anything. It's just the engine.

Mike Walker (19:33)
Oh, I thought there was something about it carrying iron or something.

David Patrick (19:40)
I don't know, I don't remember from the reading because...

Mike Walker (19:43)
You

see where I'm going if it was iron that it was carrying

That would be an O. So ⁓ where I'm going is, and this just hit me when you said it, because I remember it, I thought it said that it was carrying iron over the mountain to somewhere to build stuff. And I was like, ⁓ it's the freight engine. And then you said capital F, capital E. what is... There you go.

David Patrick (20:18)
F E the periodical element, elemental periodic. It's iron.

Mike Walker (20:23)
And an entry my dear David yes, yes, hmm, so that's funny I wonder if that was on purpose probably not, but I thought it was kind of funny ⁓

David Patrick (20:33)
definitely.

I love it. Yeah, so it was just, you know, I had not remembered the engines. don't remember specifically as a child thinking that was really cool. But I guarantee you I did. Yeah, it's just these different personalities. And, you know, when you play with toys as a little kid, especially they all come to life. And so this book brings all these toys. And more importantly, the engines to life. And I love it.

Mike Walker (20:57)
I love it too. It's very fun. ⁓ at the beginning I alluded to something and I'd like to get back to it because I think it's very interesting. ⁓ So, you know, this was a very, very popular, popular book for years and years and years years and years. Maybe farther back than we even know.

David Patrick (21:15)
generations.

Generations, I'll add this, and generations.

Mike Walker (21:23)
Absolutely. The funniest thing that I found in research leads back to a crazy night in New York City, probably around 11 p.m. in 1976 on a show called... Saturday Night Live!

David Patrick (21:46)
Saturday Night Live.

Now, here's the deal. What time did you say possibly?

Mike Walker (21:54)
⁓ I said around 11 ish. I can't remember.

David Patrick (21:58)
Definitely after 1130. Okay, now what? Because I'm not remembering what you're about to talk about, what you're referring to.

Mike Walker (22:05)
So there's a parody of the Little Engine That Could called... Well, it's not called. I don't know what it's called. It was about a little engine that has a heart attack and dies.

David Patrick (22:20)
haha

Mike Walker (22:24)
And I actually watched the clip and it cracked me up, but I kept looking at it going, Oh my God, who is that girl? Because it's this guy telling the story and this girl comes in and it's like, Oh, can you tell me a bedtime story? And so he tells her the story of the little engine that has a heart attack and dies. I think it's actually Jodie Foster. Oh.

David Patrick (22:52)
wow!

Mike Walker (22:54)
in that time frame, she would have been somewhere between, I don't know, eight and twelve, maybe?

David Patrick (23:00)
Yeah, and that's around when she was in the movie Taxi Driver.

Mike Walker (23:03)
Yeah, I laughed about that. was like, my gosh. Hopefully that didn't do any, you know, serious damage.

David Patrick (23:10)
Who was reading it? Who was the actor that was reading her the story? Donnie. ⁓

Mike Walker (23:15)
Mike, ⁓

yes, Michael O'Donoghue. Yeah. Okay. It's Mr. Mike's least loved bedtime tales.

David Patrick (23:20)
He was a writer.

Maybe after that when they said, Mike, ⁓ yeah, really good. We're gonna keep you as a writer.

Mike Walker (23:35)
I think they actually did a few of them. I have to go back and look because that one was funny. I'm wondering if they did it a few times. God, that's funny. It was very funny. Very, very I love it. So check it out. It's on YouTube.

David Patrick (23:50)
Ah, that's great. I love it. Do you have any more comments on the book? Because I don't think I have. mean, everyone knows the story. And you did allude earlier to as much as it's such a universal, you know, now we're learning over a century old American children's story. You can still say to yourself, I think I can, I think I can. You can actually use it. Give yourself a pep talk.

Mike Walker (24:11)
Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, and it's one of those things that a lot of things have changed and gone away from from our lives. But trains are still around. Yes. I see them every day. I still yell at them when they end up taking half an hour to cross the road that I'm on. But they're central and integral to our lives still.

David Patrick (24:24)
I'm still cool

Yes.

And I have not been stopped by a passenger train and gotten mad since this morning. ⁓

Mike Walker (24:50)
It's been several days for me because I haven't been out of the house.

David Patrick (24:53)
And I have not gotten stopped by a freight train in the middle of our suburbs since ⁓ yesterday. But I did the mad thing today as a joke because little personal thing is, you know, I had to miss a little meeting we had a few days ago because I had to drive down to the Hill Country at four in the morning for four hours to pick up a daughter who it turns out broke her arm. Yeah. And that and a few other things, I am getting more patient.

Mike Walker (25:01)
Nice.

David Patrick (25:23)
And these trains that stopped me last night and this morning, I decided to pull an Elsa and let it go. wasn't impatient. Thank you very much. wasn't mad. Now, that being said, we're not going to get into a discussion on public finance and public policy. The passenger train. I'm sure if you get stopped by passenger trains in Chicagoland where you live, there are many passengers. Yes, there are many passengers on.

Mike Walker (25:32)
Well played.

Yes. Yes.

David Patrick (25:52)
Yes, here in Dallas Fort Worth, these passenger trains, the girls now know that I'll say, look kids, that person is enjoying their train.

Mike Walker (26:00)
Absolutely.

David Patrick (26:03)
I'll just leave it at that. yeah, trains in all seriousness, trains still fascinate people. They fascinate me. My girls and I love to try to count the numbers of cars on those freight trains and ⁓ BNSF, the giant, I think it's Burlington Northern Santa Fe. headquarters is here in Fort Worth and they have a room in downtown Fort Worth that is like the New York Stock Exchange. Giant boards. control

Mike Walker (26:07)
Yeah.

David Patrick (26:31)
think it's like the train traffic controller. And then whenever we drive to Colorado or whenever we drove to go visit my parents in New Mexico, you'd go right by one of the major East West freight train lines parallel to the highway. And we would see trains with 110 cars.

Mike Walker (26:48)
Yeah,

it's amazing seeing those. And I saw something like that outside of LA. I was driving the opposite direction, but it kind of, think it was coming out of Barstow and just watching it go the other direction. Not very fast, but it was just amazing how long it was. It was like 10 or 20 minutes and I'm driving at 65 miles an hour. Yes. Ish. In the opposite direction.

David Patrick (27:19)
in the opposite direction. Ask exact and no faster.

Mike Walker (27:22)
And

no no no no no no no no maybe I was getting 70 faster 90 oh

David Patrick (27:29)
And then of course, if you're going the same direction as the train, then it's almost like it's always there.

Mike Walker (27:36)
It's always there. ⁓

David Patrick (27:40)
It will find you.

Mike Walker (27:41)
Absolutely. Anyway.

David Patrick (27:44)
But I I love the whole train thing and yeah, a great book and a lot of fun. At the end, when the little engine that could does. Yes. When it it tops the hill, when it makes it, there's that giant blast in the background. It looks like it's the sun. But I just that that image I'll just always remember as a kid. You could just hear the, you know.

the music or whatever. Exactly. So that burst, if you will. And it's just fun. I just love this book and always will. And so there.

Mike Walker (28:16)
What's all this?

Well, fine.

David Patrick (28:32)
Hmm. So anything else you want to say about the little engine that could?

Mike Walker (28:36)
Nope. think, well, there's a lot more that could be said. There's a lot of psychology that you can go into, pros and cons as usual, because everybody has their own take on the engine that gets forced to take the toys over the mountain. know, so there's different, different ways that people have looked at this psychologically, which we didn't. It's just a good story.

I think. Yeah. So

David Patrick (29:07)
is.

And at the time of this recording, one of the latest controversies out there is a jeans ad. J E A N S. that's weird is all I'm saying.

Mike Walker (29:19)
No, What? Not Gene Simmons?

David Patrick (29:23)
⁓ I like what you did with that Knights in Service to Silliness. That's awesome. Anyway, the point is people just read these books and enjoy them, please. Come on.

Mike Walker (29:29)
Absolutely.

Yeah, we don't have to get deep into psychology unless you're a psychologist. Like, my kid will be someday. Really? Yeah. And speaking of them, the children that we have, maybe soon, maybe either the next episode or the following episode, we should have one of them on.

David Patrick (29:47)
that's cool.

That's a great idea! Did you have a particular child and or book in mind?

Mike Walker (30:06)
I did because I think you know the oldest should get to go first absolutely and also because I told her at some point we would have a podcast and I never followed up with that and now I have a podcast and she needs to be on it so I asked her what she would like to she would like to come on and discuss Ivy and Bean yeah so we'll take a look for that and either that'll be the next or the following episode

Let's. OK.

David Patrick (30:36)
Think of the next episode. ⁓

Because she's going off to college soon. We don't want to miss this opportunity. Okay. Yes. And Ivy and Bean is a series, correct?

Mike Walker (30:40)
Exactly. Yes, you that. OK.

It is, but I would imagine that reading the first one would be best.

David Patrick (30:50)
That's usually good place to start. We're funny that way.

Mike Walker (30:53)
So at some point, well, except for with Dan Gutman's book, that was definitely not the first book. It was just the book you had. That's true.

David Patrick (31:01)
True,

sometimes that's how you do it. Why'd you read this book? It was on a shelf in my house.

Mike Walker (31:05)
There

was no pile of books that I dragged down from the garage.

David Patrick (31:09)
It fell when I moved something and it was a message from God.

Mike Walker (31:16)
Now I want to go to Juliet.

David Patrick (31:19)
I love it. Hey, you know, it's funny when you were mentioning that there are exceptions to starting with number one. Uh, hopefully not hopefully we will one day do a Chronicle of Narnia. Yes. And I don't know if you knew, I think we've talked about it. Um, yeah, we'll save that for when we do it. A chronic what? of Narnia.

Mike Walker (31:30)
Absolutely.

that's just chronic. my. Cough.

David Patrick (31:46)
So Mike, as always, it was absolutely lovely talking about a book with you. Absolutely. I cannot wait to do it next time.

They want to email us.

Exactly, and in the mean meantime...

Mike Walker (32:04)
Happy reading!

David Patrick (32:07)
That's it.