Dads on Books

Mike Walker 0:01
So why don't we get into this then?

0:06
We need an intro. Hey, David. Uh, we need an intro for our podcast.

David Patrick 0:13
We sure do. Mike, are you thinking music? music? Are you thinking Just whatever. Announce anything that we do?

Mike Walker 0:22
I don't know. I mean, I kind of feel like we've started our podcast, and like, in any other podcast that is in its first episode, I feel like we've given half of the information basically. I'm Mike Walker.

David Patrick 0:40
I'm David Patrick.

Mike Walker 0:42
And this is our podcast.

David Patrick 0:44
Welcome. So we've noticed that our children are reading, whether it's for pleasure or school, really good books, some of which we aren't familiar with, some of which we read Harm from years ago when we were their ages. And we discover it totally. Like, for example, I was all and she went and then I was all.

Mike Walker 1:05
And yada yada, yada.

David Patrick 1:06
Etc. and etc.. But so we came up with the Giving Tree as an idea for our first one, partially because we love the book, but also because Mike gave me one once years ago, he gave me lovely Genovia, which is French for the Giving Tree.

Mike Walker 1:22
Where.

David Patrick 1:23
I.

Mike Walker 1:24
Am bilingual already.

David Patrick 1:26
I know.

Mike Walker 1:26
In our first episode, Crazy.

David Patrick 1:28
Way, it was easy for me to find my copy of The Giving Tree because it was the right color spine. I'm sorry. Not the Giving Tree lovers it, but it took me longer to find my copy of The Giving Tree because this one is the one I read when I was a kid. This one, according to the published date, is 1960 something and you probably can't see. And if you're listening, you definitely can't see. The spine is light blue. So when I was first looking for it, I couldn't find it because I was just going by color.

Mike Walker 1:58
Interesting.

David Patrick 1:59
Yeah. So I looked less rationally and more carefully and found my English copy. So a question for you, Mike, Mike, which we will have to ask each other often at the beginning of our podcast. Did you do your homework? Did you read it?

Mike Walker 2:13
I absolutely did. We met last Friday and now today is Wednesday of the following week. So it's been, you know, five days.

2:26
Well, I read it this morning.

David Patrick 2:30
Funny you mention that. i21 up you. I did not read it. Well, I did read it this morning, but this call was scheduled to be at 10:00. I did have an orthodontist appointment for one of the girls, but I was ready to go at 1015. And I told you 1030, because that's about how long it took me to find my copy and read it myself. So, yeah, we both did our homework.

Mike Walker 2:50
Well, I can't believe we actually did it.

David Patrick 2:54
Unbelievable feeling. Okay, So thanks for joining us, everyone. See you next time. Bye bye.

Mike Walker 2:59
So I clean my basement yesterday. Mm hmm. Part of that was to find this book, and I did not. So I woke up this morning and looked online to see if there was a PDF copy that I could just zip through. And there are many PDF copies online. Not as satisfying as reading the book, but almost. It did take me back to probably the first time that I read it a number of years ago, and it was it's interesting book, and because I was online reading it right after I finished, I went back to the search and looked at other areas of interest regarding the book, really, and found that it was a very controversial contra virtual book.

David Patrick 4:04
When it came out.

Mike Walker 4:05
When it came out. And I would imagine still.

David Patrick 4:10
Wow, what were some of the controversies? And once I got let's put this in social history context, was it indeed published in the mid sixties?

Mike Walker 4:18
Did you believe that? It was written in 1961? Okay. And first published in 64. 65.

David Patrick 4:26
Okay.

Mike Walker 4:27
You may have a first edition.

David Patrick 4:30
Um, I have the standard book number Trade Edition Harper Kress edition. But it does say Copyright 1964.

Mike Walker 4:39
Yeah. So from what I read, Mr. Silverstein wrote the story in 1961 and had a hard time finding a publisher because he was just Shel Silverstein then dude from Chicago.

David Patrick 4:58
Hanging out at the Playboy Mansion.

Mike Walker 5:01
Probably not.

David Patrick 5:02
Not yet, no. You know, he was he did say no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wasn't just being random, but. Yeah. I'm sorry. So he couldn't find a publisher early, so.

Mike Walker 5:13
It took him until 63 or 64 to find a publisher who was willing to publish the story that many people thought was controversial because it had some bad stereotypes of basically, it's the one. It's bad relationships. The boy takes too much and the tree the girl gives too much.

David Patrick 5:42
Hence the giving tree.

Mike Walker 5:44
Hence the giving tree. Hmm. And so what I found in doing this sort of research. Mm hmm. Was that that is a big theme that a lot of people have issue with. They think it shows that maybe an abusive relationship or something. And maybe that's true. It does show that. But I think that's kind of the point.

David Patrick 6:09
Mm hmm.

Mike Walker 6:10
Is that there's two sides to the story. Both people this relationship are not doing the right thing.

David Patrick 6:20
Oh, including the tree.

Mike Walker 6:22
Including the tree.

David Patrick 6:24
Because you would think, especially if you're a child reading this and my entire even with the reread that I did this morning, I felt the tree never aired. It was a one way give relationship. It circled back at the end. Spoiler alert

6:42
that you know that both were happy in the end, but it seemed to me that the tree was 100% giving. The boy was throughout the whole middle part, the bell curve taking. He didn't give until the end. And he gave, of course, and he was a child. That's sort of the bell curve, the emotional arc of of a lifetime, which was, I think, one of the points of the book.

Mike Walker 7:03
Yes.

David Patrick 7:04
But the point is, Mike, I never I never saw I never that never occurred to me as a kid on this reading or anything in between. So that's an interesting perspective.

Mike Walker 7:15
It is, because I found when I was reading that these discussions that I remember reading the book, which is why I know I have it somewhere in my house, some I remember reading it and thinking there's something good and bad about this story. And I always thought that. I always thought it was the boy who just kept taking and taking. Right. But then at the other side, I had looked at it trying to get out of just that view and seeing the story on a bigger plane. Hmm. And I found that I did have problems with the tree as well, because the tree never says no.

David Patrick 8:05
Oh, yeah. So literally in the past 40 seconds, listening to you, that occurred to me as well. Maybe it's helpful that I now a parent. Two words, a space parent. One P

8:22
because yeah, enabling not setting limits, not following through, which is something I do as a parent all the time. And now annoyingly.

Mike Walker 8:30
We all do.

David Patrick 8:31
Yeah. Am I? The sad thing is my 13 year old, my oldest daughter, Delaney, tells me that she's now commenting on my parenting and how I deal with Lucy, the youngest. But, you know, as a kid, thankfully, I was not as smart as my daughter. So of course, I dealt and remind me. I need to ask you when you read it, because you say you remember reading it. But I know I read it as a kid. So I was definitely single digit age, maybe ten years after the book came out and just, Oh, what a neat story. And. Right.

Mike Walker 9:06
But I think that's what's interesting, that as a perspective from a child's point of view, view, it's just a nice story. Like, the tree takes care of the little boy.

David Patrick 9:18
Mm hmm.

Mike Walker 9:19
As he goes through life. Mm hmm. But then when you start looking at it more, it's so much deeper. And as an adult, like, I really kind of understood it more. Mm hmm. So when I went back and was reading these issues that people were having with the book because it was so horrible then that this guy wrote this story that's about bad relationships. Yeah. But he wrote the story about bad relationships in and this was in the sixties. And yeah, it was not I don't I don't think and this is just my opinion. I'm no scholar.

David Patrick 10:03
Well, I think anywhere you go, it could also be your, your and our perception of the time. But keep going.

Mike Walker 10:10
At that at the time, I don't think that relationships are viewed were viewed the same as they are now. I think that there were much worse relationship ups, but I think people have grown and as we have all grown, we have gotten better at relationships and we understand the whole give and take. And setting boundaries and limits.

David Patrick 10:37
Mm hmm.

Mike Walker 10:38
I think that that's what he was writing about. Mm hmm. But people I don't reading these things that people were all up in arms about it, like. But that is what the book is about. It's about you have to learn boundaries, and you have to set boundaries. Mm hmm. Because if you don't, you're going to totally get taken advantage of or someone's going to totally take advantage. Yeah.

David Patrick 11:05
That's really cool.

Mike Walker 11:07
Yeah.

David Patrick 11:08
So a couple of thoughts. I love reading things that I've read before, but reading them during a different point of my life. Yep. I've told you about the Chronicles of Narnia, which, you know, I read. It was the summer of 1979, so I was 11.

Mike Walker 11:23
I was in Colorado.

David Patrick 11:24
Nice. I was in Dallas. Fort Worth and.

Mike Walker 11:28
Surprise.

David Patrick 11:29
Yeah. Shocked to learn. But I. I read them, then I reread them in college. I don't remember why I reread them in the early aughts, because that's when The Lord of the Rings movies came out and everyone was now saying Chronicles of Narnia will come out. So I had this pipe dream of, I'll write the screenplay. I'm sure I'm the only person in Hollywood besides the people the rights to do that. But the point is, you know, those are all different to different points in adulthood. But then reading them as an adult, I mean, not as an adult, as a father, even even more different, you know. And so this is really cool that this book is so simple. There are certain pages where there are two or three words or zero. And we have even talked about art yet. We haven't talked about any of the visual.

Mike Walker 12:16
Yeah, we'll get into that as soon as you're done.

David Patrick 12:19
Well, so the point is, it is amazing how deep this book is. And I've been reading this since literally the seventies, and yet because of talking with you, I have a whole new perspective on it. But what I also I purposely even had I had more time, I was not going to do what you did. I was not going to go look at any comments at all. I wanted to read the book and then talk with you. Who knows? Maybe as move forward, we decide ahead of time, one or both, or neither of us go down the rabbit hole. We keep it fresh or not. Maybe it just depends.

Mike Walker 12:54
I think that's a great idea. Mm hmm. And since we're developing this as we may get someone taken out,

13:03
stay tuned. Because both of us with our ADHD will not remember this in 30 minutes.

David Patrick 13:09
Wait, let me check it out. Should I use black or green? It's the giving Tree. Both. But what color? What shade of green? Just kidding.

Mike Walker 13:17
But they're all pens, right? Yeah. Pencils.

David Patrick 13:20
Well, I do have a regular pencil for writing. And then there are certain colors I couldn't replicate, like brown, so I had to get a colored pencil.

13:29
And of course, with crayons. Don't get me started on crayons. Is it green? Yellow or yellow? Green. And then Crayola crayon, which are those is stronger. That's another episode.

Mike Walker 13:37
Chartreuse is is actually a crayon color, I believe. I think that's my favorite color. That's why I know that.

David Patrick 13:45
I know it's actually I don't have it right now, but I do have different shades of light green because you are shatterproof. But back to the book. Do we want to move to the art now?

Mike Walker 13:56
Yeah. Let's. Let's go.

David Patrick 13:58
So, you know, there are certain pages. Here's an example of how well you can see it. But swinging from our branches. Yeah, And there's a tiny bit right here where there's leaves.

Mike Walker 14:10
Yeah, I think.

David Patrick 14:11
Yeah. Or, you know, the point is, nothing is by mistake in this. Right. And even though I did a not too quick but a once through perusal for preparing for today, I notice things like that y on this page are the leaves here? Why are they there? So that's one thing. Another thing that really struck me is I am so nostalgic about certain images and sometimes I forgot them and get to revisit. But there's one of the earliest images of the boy where he looks. It's this one right here. I think it may be the pages.

Mike Walker 14:52
Four pages that.

David Patrick 14:54
I don't have page numbers on mine, but it's. Oh, and every day the boy would come. It might be the first time we see him. Yeah. This particular particular sketch of the boy looks exactly like my first best friend, Hudson. Weitzel and Hudson and I friends. I probably read this with him. Okay, we're still in touch. He was at our wedding. As were you. He sat at our table because, unlike you, he was one of the few people that had no other connection to anyone else. I think you sat with Chicago people. I think you and Kim sat with Barzee and Sharon. And I reminded Hudson that I have a lot of best friends. And he said, Yes, but I'm your first best friend. No one can ever take that away from me. But it's just wild that does look like he did look like that. Wow. But it was fun for me to be reminded of. Oh, wow. I remember that now. And I get to do it again. But then other things I noticed. And here's another one that's just so cool. The boy is climbing the tree and all. We see your hands and feet.

Mike Walker 15:59
What's on the next page?

David Patrick 16:01
Oh, shoes.

Mike Walker 16:04
I noticed that when I was reading it today. I don't know if I ever really looked over there, to be honest. Like, I see him climbing the tree. Right? And all of the sudden this time, I was like, Oh, there's his shoes. Oh, he's barefoot. I never thought about it.

David Patrick 16:22
But I saw him barefoot with the feet sticking out of the tree. And I loved climbing trees as a kid, but I don't like my feet hurting, so I never I hate splinters.

Mike Walker 16:32
Absolutely.

David Patrick 16:33
So I would never climb a tree barefoot. Plus, in Texas, in the summer especially, there's sticker burrs in the ground. I hate that, too. But none of those emotions I told you about with the trees and the climbing, I don't think I ever came up with until right now. Anyway, I just. There's so much. And to me, any work of art book, movie, TV, show, play painting, when so much can be communicated with so little, it's so powerful.

Mike Walker 17:01
Yes.

David Patrick 17:02
Yes.

Mike Walker 17:02
So that's the simplicity of the drawing. It just looks like a doodle. Yes. When you really look at it, there's just so much more to it.

David Patrick 17:13
Well, here's another thing I'm going to give Shel and or his publishers credit that nothing's by accident on this particular page just showed you. Yeah. He would climb up her trunk, and the shoes were sitting there. Yeah. The next page and swing from her branches. The shoes are there again. But I see again, because they're different.

Mike Walker 17:34
Yeah.

David Patrick 17:34
So that means.

Mike Walker 17:37
This is different.

David Patrick 17:38
Different climb. Could be after lunch. The same day. Could be two years later. Who knows?

Mike Walker 17:45
I found I was looking around the trunk to see if there was anything with how the tree was growing or how the roots. And I didn't see anything. But I thought it was. It was interesting that the tree itself is never the same. Yeah, it's looking at.

David Patrick 18:06
That, right.

Mike Walker 18:07
It's still slightly different. Sometimes there's more roots. Mm hmm. So I just. I was interesting.

David Patrick 18:15
No, it's very interesting, because also, again, especially with the shoes, I mean, it's very easy to just copy the image. Mm hmm. But clearly, Silverstein, I'm assuming he, you know, hand drew every single spread, a spread being the two pages.

Mike Walker 18:31
Yep.

David Patrick 18:32
From my yearbook days, you know, And I'm looking at the roots. Okay. Why did they change? Are they different? How Mobile is the tree? Because here's the hide and go seek page where the tree has a branch that moves and finds the boy behind the rock. Is that his imagination? I mean, is the tree really moving? Right. But it's just so cool.

Mike Walker 18:54
What does that anther through a anthropomorphic. Yeah. I can't say that. That's too many syllables of the letter.

David Patrick 19:02
I don't know if it's 13 years of Catholic school or voice training or both, but yeah. Anthropomorphic is a literary device where you know something Nonhuman takes on human traits.

Mike Walker 19:13
Yeah, that's what I was getting at. Absolutely. Obviously, because I can't say the word clearly, But I love your dress. Mm hmm. I found it interesting continuing through the story. Mm hmm. As you look at the tree, it does change. Yep. And it gets a tattoo. I just thought of that. I it was funny. Oh, so awesome. But lets the boy carve a heart into the tree saying me plus t.

David Patrick 19:43
Me and t. Mm hmm. And also, it's m period. E period. So what's the guy's name? Mike Evers.

19:51
Michael.

Mike Walker 19:51
Oh. So back to the book.

David Patrick 19:55
Mm hmm.

Mike Walker 19:56
So flip a couple of pages.

David Patrick 19:58
Mm hmm.

Mike Walker 19:59
He is sitting under the tree. Mm hmm. And then he is sitting under the tree with his girlfriend.

David Patrick 20:06
With Yvonne. A vet. Your love. What his whale stand for.

Mike Walker 20:11
That was going to be my question. Why? L What is who is why? L I sat there thinking, Oh, that. Who is why? L And then I came to Young Love.

David Patrick 20:25
That when I just said, Oh.

Mike Walker 20:27
That's when you realize what you said.

David Patrick 20:29
I'm like, Yvonne, is that me in tree? Me and Young love? Yep. Nailed it.

Mike Walker 20:35
Now that it took me to interpretation, it is, of course, but. But that's. But that's where I went with it.

David Patrick 20:42
I think that's.

Mike Walker 20:43
After after sitting there for like three or 4 minutes thinking why l Why what? Why, why? L And I think I went through the same event. Yvonne What other why names are there? I can't think of any right now, but.

David Patrick 21:01
Don't need to. Because now, young.

Mike Walker 21:03
Love, I believe that's when it came to me. When I ran out of names that I remembered and then realized young love quite possibly was what he meant to write. Because there was always a purpose. It was young love.

David Patrick 21:18
I love it.

Mike Walker 21:19
It really is an amazing book and you should go and read some of the things that I saw, like how controversial it was and how many people didn't like it. I didn't realize there were people who didn't like this book totally. Then when I realized, like all of these depths, I really didn't understand why people didn't like the book.

David Patrick 21:43
I see the point you're making, and that makes me even think you're more wrong.

21:49
That's two words, by the way.

Mike Walker 21:52
So, yeah, so that was kind of my thinking. Well, the more you say that, it's so bad. Mm hmm. That this relationship is so horrible. The more I thought. Mr. Shel Silverstein, I'm pretty sure wrote what he meant.

David Patrick 22:12
Yes.

Mike Walker 22:13
And what he meant is quite possibly how you are taking it.

22:20
And isn't that the purpose of books? So that we learn from people's mistakes so we don't have to make them ourselves? Maybe. Maybe recognize sooner that we have a bad habit or we're doing maybe not the best thing because, oh, I remember this book where this kid takes and takes and takes and I shouldn't do that and thought, Oh, I'm the tree. Who is giving, giving, giving. But then I end up with nothing. Right. I did find it interesting that at the end of the story and I didn't notice this, this was actually something somebody pointed out and pointed out.

David Patrick 23:05
Mm hmm.

Mike Walker 23:06
When you get to him coming back to the stump, I had to go back because somebody said, Oh, he cut the tree into the stump in between the two hearts, too.

David Patrick 23:18
I noticed that just now, when I was seeing him walk away with the log for the boat.

Mike Walker 23:23
I thought that was interesting, though. I did go back and look because I had to see, did he really do that? And yeah.

David Patrick 23:31
He did. And so the boy cut down her trunk and made a boat and sail away. And there's him walking away. Although I should say there's the half trunk with two legs and one pair of fingers sticking out. But also, it's interesting, I'm just noticing this. And I did notice that this morning the trunk left behind with me and T is the full trunk, but he's walking away. It's already half. But where's the other half?

Mike Walker 23:55
He's making a canoe.

David Patrick 23:56
Yes, a boat. But the other half is not in this spread. It's not on these pages. Yes, the other half. And young love. Maybe she's the other half. Maybe he got married. It was someone else. I assume he got married because he said I want a family. Or have a family. But we never hear about a wife or kids or anything.

Mike Walker 24:13
Right. Also, the younger him on the one page and then and off the very next one or two after that, when he comes back and says that that the image of him is as a much older person than the previous image. I also found that odd because he looked so much older when I saw that picture. He's climbing in the tree, getting the apples, and he looks like a teenager ish, maybe, you know, getting into adulthood. But then like when he's going out to find a wife, all of the sudden he is 45.

David Patrick 24:57
You're right. I want a wife and I want children. And he's receding hairline. And especially back then, it's much more common now to have kids older. But it certainly wasn't in 1961 when Shel wrote this. It's a good point. Even the one who wants to sell the apples and buy stuff because he wants money, he looks older than he should be. Yeah, Yeah, you're right. That's a good point.

Mike Walker 25:20
When I was reading the little bits and things actually said something about him being an adolescent. So I went back and looked at that picture and I was like.

David Patrick 25:28
No.

Mike Walker 25:29
He looks like he's like 2021. I don't consider that adolescent.

David Patrick 25:34
No, you're absolutely right. But again, nothing is done by accident. So why did he draw him that way?

Mike Walker 25:38
And that's what I was wondering, like, what was the purpose in drawing of them as a little bit older than what we would perceive of that age being?

David Patrick 25:48
Mm hmm. And then I was looking back, listening to all of this, there's an interesting thing the image of. But time went by before Young Love because the boy is up against the tree and the young love tattoo is not there yet, but he's leaning against the tree. He's older and he's got blah mood and he has his right leg up. You know, have you lean against the wall, you bend your leg and put your foot up. He's just sitting there and he's probably thinking, Yeah, I want a girl or girls or this is kind of boring by myself, you know what I mean? It's a really. Aw.

Mike Walker 26:25
Man, I want to be James Dean. Yeah, that's a pose. Yeah. James Dean pose. Like standing against the wall with the one leg up.

David Patrick 26:35
Mm hmm. But you know, the page before he's the little boy, the knife is on the floor behind him. He probably just carved the tattoo, and he's smiling. Says very much, And was happy. Boom. Next grab A time went by. He's leaning against the tree, and there's a leaf falling in front of. Oh, man, this is amazing. And when he's sitting there with while while the four legs sticking out from the tree, there are two leaves falling.

Mike Walker 26:59
Oh.

David Patrick 27:01
Interest just noticed that.

Mike Walker 27:03
And is that some symbolism of the tree is losing the person? Mm. I'm just going out on a limb here.

David Patrick 27:12
I see what you did.

Mike Walker 27:17
So anyway, it's just a fascinating book and even more fascinating as an adult and thinking more deeply about it. I think we should just end the podcast series now because I don't see how we can have a better book to talk about.

David Patrick 27:34
Right. Despite all the books that have been written, you're right. We're done. The world is over. That being said, I do want to read mention like The Chronicles of Narnia and in my opinion, also The Little Mermaid and other good animated features. They're great for kids, but there's still enough there for adults.

Mike Walker 27:52
Absolutely.

David Patrick 27:53
And to have the balance where either age, any age can read this book and get something out of it, nothing's inappropriate despite all the cacophony you dove into.

28:05
Everybody calm down, okay? Just calm down.

Mike Walker 28:08
Now, David part anyway.

David Patrick 28:11
Yeah, It's amazing. Do we want to pick a next book that.

Mike Walker 28:16
Since we don't have any actual listeners yet who can suggest a book.

David Patrick 28:23
Let's go to our audience. Yes. Da da da do. Okay. That's all the time we have left. Course. Thanks. Also, sorry we missed your call.

Mike Walker 28:32
Soon.

David Patrick 28:32
Tune in next time.

Mike Walker 28:34
Yeah. That being said, I don't think I have any suggestions. Well, you do.

David Patrick 28:41
I bet

28:43
I have a few. One is Olivia the Pig. And the reason why is you gave gave that to Delaney for her birthday or something like that. And I think Olivia helps with Christmas. That is probably probably my all time favorite of all the kids books we have. The girls loved it. loved it. Monica loved it. And I know that the origin story is you sent that to us. You and Kim brought my girls into the wonderful world of Olivia.

Mike Walker 29:17
I don't remember that.

David Patrick 29:18
But you don't.

Mike Walker 29:19
What do I remember? I remember the French Giving Tree.

David Patrick 29:22
Yeah, well, I never were.

Mike Walker 29:26
Yeah, I think it's a great one. We should read that.

David Patrick 29:29
So specifically, we're not doing Olivia. We're doing Olivia Helps with Christmas.

Mike Walker 29:33
That sounds great.

David Patrick 29:34
Okay. And good reading to you in the future. And then we will talk about said reading.

Mike Walker 29:39
And thank you for listening.

David Patrick 29:41
Thank you very.

Mike Walker 29:42
Much. We will talk at you soon.

David Patrick 29:45
Yep. This concludes Season one episode one half years ago.